So here is the nice thing about being a kid -- you don't have to know that Gandalf is "not human" (as I said in comments below -- he seems to me to be without any kind of flaw that would make him human, reachable); so when Sylvia heard him talking with Thorin at the end of Chapter 2, saying that he had been warned about the trolls by elves he met on the road and had come back to make sure the dwarves were not in any danger, the first thing she thought was, "I bet he's just saying that, trying to take all the credit." Now internally I think, well, that doesn't make sense -- Gandalf's character is not that of a seeker after undeserved credit, plus what he's saying matches up with the plot of the rest of the book -- but I love Sylvia for giving me a different window on Gandalf's character, reminding me that I should be suspicious of his motives as much as those of anyone else in the book.
posted evening of Tuesday, March 31st, 2009
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I take your point, though I think Sylvia may be on to something--if a slightly different something than she thinks. At (says my vague memory) various points in the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf hides his true motivation, largely (perhaps exclusively) because he's had a premonition, which, if shared with the party, would alter their behavior in ways that would perhaps risk inappropriately altering the future. The immediate (and, again, pleading faulty memory, perhaps only) example that comes to mind is his preference for the over-mountain route in Fellowship rather than through the mines of Moria; he knows that if they go via Moria, he's going to die at the hands of the Balrog.
Now, that's far from credit-hogging, but at the same time it could be construed as a character flaw: I imagine any of the members of the Fellowship would have seen Gandalf's withholding of his premonition as a betrayal.
posted evening of March 31st, 2009 by Levi Stahl
Funny -- I am just now reading the passage in which they are debating about whether to go to Moria or through Rohan, and I am noticing Gandalf withholding information as you say. But this is seeming to me like it confirms my complaints about Gandalf -- the narrator makes it very clear that Gandalf knows what is best for the party and is going to be proven right in the end, and his cryptic behavior is forced on him by the lesser natures of the rest of the party. Something like that.
posted evening of March 31st, 2009 by Jeremy
Funny, Gandalf seems very human to me. He carries a great burden and is careworn and anxious. He is shown many times in the early part of the book making mistakes, not telling Frodo to leave early enough, leaving a note with butterbur, trusting Sarumon. He certainly displays relief and joy, fear, worry & anger. Aragon seems less accessible & human to me as a character early on in the books. Although that changes.
posted afternoon of April first, 2009 by painter ofblue
"leaving a note with Butterbur" doesn't really seem to me like something you can fault Gandalf for -- it's Butterbur's fault the note does not get to Frodo, not Gandalf's -- there is a small error of judgement on Gandalf's part but nothing like a tragic flaw. I don't get the impression Gandalf could sin, could be vain or petty or malicious.
posted morning of April second, 2009 by Jeremy
But Gandalf knows Butterbur has a head like a sieve and says that he was worried about it. I think you are right about him not being vain, petty or malicious, but I think he could sin by pride. I would say a bit more here, but I'm not sure at what point in the books you are and I don't want to spoil anything...
posted evening of April 9th, 2009 by painter ofblue
Thanks :) -- I just finished Fellowship, we're heading to DC for the weekend and I am taking Two Towers along. I like not having plots spoilt though. Interesting about Gandalf sinning by pride -- that thought had crossed my mind but never really went anywhere yet.
posted evening of April 9th, 2009 by Jeremy
Fascinating thread.
Does Gandalf's behavior in The Hobbit offer clues? I'm not sure that Gandalf needs to *know* he will meet the Balrog for him to feel very strongly that the mines were more dangerous to the party than the mountain pass. IMO he operates with knowledge of the deep past as well as broad sight of the present, but not with knowledge of the future. And: I can't remember if Gandalf was around to register any natural human irritation with Tom Bombadil....
posted morning of February 12th, 2012 by MW
